An interview with Pinhas Romik, Duplicate Poker CEO
The CEO of DuplicatePoker.com discusses how a former international bridge champion and co-architect of the "Star Wars" strategic defense initiative ended up in the poker business
Note: Pinhas Romik, CEO of Duplicate 2007, Inc. was interviewed in his office on December 27, 2007 by Nolan Dalla, the company's Director of Communications.
Pinhas Romik (pronounced pin-has rom-ick) has taken many twists and turns in his 61 years. Born in the former USSR, Romik immigrated to Israel in 1967. Always passionate about games of intellect, he became a Bridge Master and went on to finish as runner-up in the European Bridge Championships, twice. He also finished third in the World Championship. Later, Romik abandoned international bridge competition altogether, choosing instead to advance his career in electronics and telecommunications. The pursuit of greater knowledge would last two decades. During the 1980s, Romik and a few of his associates were privileged to work on the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), better known as "Star Wars," a program championed by the Reagan Administration. Romik proposed and managed development of a system that contributed to the defense of Israel from Ballistic Missiles. In 1992, Romik founded a Wireless LAN high-tech company, which was sold to a giant in 1999. Now able to retire, Romik showed absolutely no signs of slowing down. He was inspired to resurrect his earlier experiences as a Bridge Master. He founded (and later sold) e-bridge, the world's largest online bridge tournaments game site. He also succeeded as a player in a few major bridge championships held in the US and Europe. Then a few years later, when poker exploded in popularity, Romik saw that the world was about to change again. He had yet another vision – to create a new skill-based game which would combine the concepts of Duplicate Bridge and apply them to poker, specifically flop games such as Hold'em and Omaha. And so, the new game site called DuplicatePoker.com was born.
NOLAN DALLA: Pinhas – please tell us. What is "Duplicate Poker?"
PINHAS ROMIK: Duplicate Poker is similar to a regular poker game, with a few notable differences. In Duplicate Poker you play against the players sitting in corresponding seats, and not really versus the other players sitting at your table. Yes, you want maximize your result in every hand at your table: to win as many chips as possible, or to lose minimum. But in the end, your skills are judged based on how you competed against the other players who were facing identical circumstances. There is virtually no luck involved in Duplicate Poker, since each player in the corresponding seats is dealt identical cards. It is up to you, not the luck of the draw, to make the most of the cards you have.
DALLA: When did you launch the game site called DuplicatePoker.com?
ROMIK: The website is less than a year old. We began Beta-testing last spring and launched in the summer of 2007. We already have both play-money and real-money games at DuplicatePoker.com. We run tournaments, sit n' goes, and cash games which are called "quick play" matches. We have freerolls and sign-up bonuses for new players. The site runs 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. We are pleased to see how fast we have grown in such a short period of time.
DALLA: DuplicatePoker.com is based inside the United States. How is this possible? Aren't all the poker sites based overseas?
ROMIK: DuplicatePoker.com is not a gambling site. It is skill-based gaming. So, laws and prohibitions against gambling do not apply to our site. While some states (13 in all) restrict skill-based gaming as well, we are legal in most jurisdictions inside the United States. We only operate in the 37 states where we are legal. Furthermore, funding player accounts through player's bank is legal at DuplicatePoker.com. We accept MasterCard, Visa, and American Express. We are a company registered in Delaware and we are based in New York City. We also have offices in Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and overseas.
NOLAN DALLA: For the CEO of an online poker company, you have quite an eclectic background. Tell us your story.
PINHAS ROMIK: I was born in Belarus, which at the time was part of the former Soviet Union. When I was a boy, my family left for Poland, where we lived for almost ten years. But my family always had dreams of moving to Israel. After the Six-Day War occurred in 1967, we had the opportunity to immigrate and I have been here for the past forty years.
DALLA: What did you do when you arrived in your new homeland?
ROMIK: I attended and later graduated from Tel Aviv University. It's interesting because Tel Aviv University is the alma mater for everyone in my family. My wife graduated from there. My two sons also earned their degrees from there, one in Engineering, the other in Mathematics. I earned my degree in physics. After that, I was drafted into the Israeli Defense Force, mandatory service for all Israelis.
DALLA: Were games a big part of your life when you were growing up?
ROMIK: Oh yes! My first love was soccer, which is no surprise since soccer has been the passion of just about every child in Europe ever since I can remember. As I got older, I became more attracted to mind games, and card games in particular – like Canasta and Bridge. I first started to play Bridge when I was only 12. I became a very good player at quite a young age. When I was age 19, I was picked to be on the Polish National Bridge Team.
DALLA: When did you start to take bridge more seriously?
ROMIK: When I moved to Israel, bridge for me was still just a hobby. But then, I was selected to be on the Israeli National Bridge Team and my team finished as the runner up in the European Bridge Championship. Then, the following year we were the runner up again. We also qualified for the World Bridge Championships. We finished as the runner-up in that, too. What was really interesting and unusual was that all of us on the team were relatively young. We were all in our 20s and 30s. Bridge has been an older persons' game for quite some time. But we were the first young people to really make a splash on the international bridge scene. Since that time, I have been fortunate to win many prestigious bridge tournaments, including North America Bridge Championship and the European Bridge Championship in seniors' category.
DALLA: Perhaps the most famous bridge player in the world is the actor Omar Sharif, from Doctor Zhivago and Lawrence of Arabia fame. Did you ever play with Mr. Sharif?
ROMIK: Yes, I know Omar and played against him many times on different occasions. Omar is a very good and experienced tournament player. We played years ago in the prestigious Sunday Times Bridge Tournament in London, and there was a photograph from this event of Omar with me.
DALLA: I have been told that it is not really possible to support oneself as a professional bridge player. Is that right?
ROMIK: That's almost true; there is a very small number of bridge players who make their living from bridge only. There is not a lot of money to be made playing bridge. People play the game for different reasons, for the love of the game, to be part of a social group, but not so much for money. Maybe that is why bridge is dominated now by an older crowd, as young people have many other recreational opportunities. After I was out of college, I was working as an engineer for an electronics company. The trouble was -- bridge was taking up much of my time. And I was also raising a family. So by 1979, I had to quit playing Bridge competitively to focus on other priorities.
DALLA: Priorities such as being a husband, raising two sons, and establishing a highly-successful career?
ROMIK: Yes, that is one way of putting it. From 1974 through 1992, I worked at Tadiran Electronics Industries, which was the largest electronics firm in Israel. I started out as an engineer and worked my way up to the executive level. Our firm designed, manufactured, and sold military and civilian communications and electronic equipment. I spent 20 years working in electronic technologies, microelectronics, electro-optics, command, control, communications and intelligence (C3I) systems, ballistic missiles defense, military communications systems, consumer radio technologies, manufacturing, logistics and TQM methods for Tadiran Electronics. To this day, I remain involved in several important projects in this area.
DALLA: I remember when the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) was first proposed in the mid-1980s. It was very controversial. Critics mocked the idea. How did you get involved in what would became known as "Star Wars/"
ROMIK: I was appointed by my company to manage SDI activities. In a short time we proposed to build an interesting system that received the support of the Israeli Ministry of Defense and the SD Organization. The system is operational and continues to flourish until this day.
DALLA: I believe you were commended for your contribution, by none other than (then) Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney, who is now Vice-President. Is that right?
ROMIK: Yes, on the occasion of the system being commissioned to its Initial Operating Capability, Dick Cheney, then US Sec-Def, and Moshe Arens, then Israeli Minister of Defense, awarded me with a plaque for development of the system.
DALLA: What happened next?
ROMIK: In 1992, I left Tadiran to start a new venture. This was the time when cell phone technology was just about to change everything. I founded a company called RDC Communications, which has since become a worldwide leader in wireless data communications, now selling its products in over 20 countries. At RDC, I served as the President and CEO, and was the Executive Director. In 1999, RDC Communications was sold for a nice profit to Marconi Communications, a UK-based firm.
DALLA: Right then and there, many people would have taken the money and ran. But you decided to do something new and different. There is some irony in the fact that you also came around full-circle. Tell us about that.
ROMIK: Like I said earlier, I had not really played bridge for 20 years. There were many things I missed about the game, but I was so busy. When I sold off my business, I was then presented with a new opportunity. I thought about this as a real junction in my life and was thinking about ways to start a new enterprise. I really like to create things. I like to build things. That's just the way I am. Whatever I did, I wanted to combine being a service company with an Internet technology and immerse myself in something that I knew very well. So, I started a company called e-bridge, Inc. (later known as Duplicate, Inc.). We attracted investors and built a site that grew into the largest tournament bridge site on the Internet. After about four years of working to build e-bridge, I sold the company to Worldwinner, Inc. which is the largest pay-to-play skill-based game site in the world.
DALLA: What are the major differences between bridge players and poker players?
ROMIK: First and foremost, people in bridge are not used to playing for money. Yes, there are people who do play bridge and compete for money and there are bridge clubs all over the world where this takes place. But most bridge players play in order to earn Master Points and achieve a higher standing. They play for the intellectual challenge. Bridge is about problem solving and immediate gratification. Of course, poker is quite different. Then, there are the differences in the players, such as their ages. The average bridge player in America is in his (or her) late 60s. As you know, in poker the average age seems be a player in his 20s – and all of them have personal computers and are used to playing online. That's one of the things that gives Duplicate Poker such great long term potential. Poker players are already used to the technology. Our mission now is to welcome them to the game.
NOLAN DALLA: You have mastered bridge - both as a player and as an entrepreneur. Now, you've come up with a new way to play and think about poker. Tell us about the transition.
PINHAS ROMIK: Before 2004, I really did not know much about poker. Then, I was told about a great book (written by Jim McManus) called "Positively Fifth Street." I read it and immediately came to realize that poker is a very interesting game. I was fascinated by it. In many ways, it was the discovery of a whole new world. I felt like Columbus because this brand new world did not exist for me prior to reading that book. I guess you could say that "Positively Fifth Street" was akin to reading Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Lost World."
DALLA: I'm sure Jim McManus will appreciate the comparison. So, how did reading his book lead to what later became known as Duplicate Poker?
ROMIK: I started to think to myself – how can I apply what I have learned and enjoyed about bridge and apply it to poker? I believed the primary attraction would be to try and increase the level of skill in poker, and diminish the luck factor to the greatest extent possible. That way, making poker into even more of a skill game would attract new players, and would even interest people who are not poker players already. Of course, poker was exploding in popularity during this time just as we were developing the game. When I sought out business partners to invest in this new venture, there were many people who were interested. I am proud to say we now have an excellent group of investors, most of whom have backgrounds in bridge and various games, and they have given Duplicate Poker their full support.
DALLA: There are different forms of poker – including flop games, stud, draw, and so forth. But Duplicate Poker is only played in the form of hold'em. Why?
ROMIK: We can actually use both hold'em and Omaha in Duplicate Poker. This is because all of the hole cards and flop cards can be duplicated (by each player at every table). However, in stud and draw games the distribution of cards cannot be duplicated. This is because some players fold and make different decisions that will affect the others involved in the game. Using a hold'em or Omaha format essentially allows us to deal the exact same cards to each player and then measure the skills of all players against the opponents.
DALLA: The passage of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act in September 2006 certainly changed the American poker landscape. Did you foresee the crackdown on Internet poker coming when you launched DuplicatePoker.com?
ROMIK: No. I did not foresee legal changes taking place inside the United States. The new law that was passed did not really affect in any way how we went about developing, testing and later launching the game. The (UIGEA) certainly did not affect my enthusiasm for developing a new way to play and think about poker.
DALLA: Do you expect Duplicate Poker to be played both in the United States, and internationally?
ROMIK: Not initially. Right now, we are introducing the game mostly to Americans. This is largely because the simple fact is – more Americans are already familiar with poker and are more likely to understand the basic argument we are making about increasing the level of skill in poker. Later, as we grow I expect that we will market and promote Duplicate Poker to more nations overseas.
DALLA: What have been the biggest challenges with developing a new game and launching a new site?
ROMIK: There are always challenges associated with starting something new. For me, the first challenge is to convert the idea into something practical. There are millions of good ideas out there floating around, but most of them are never implemented. Duplicate Poker is a great idea and now the challenge is to get more people to give this new game a try. The second challenge is to achieve a balance within the company. This means having the right technical people in place whose task it is to improve the site, to go along with the marketing staff whose job it is to introduce and promote Duplicate Poker to a wider audience. Actually, I really think this is the biggest challenge for most new companies because attracting talented and dedicated people is never easy. Many of the best people in their field are already working elsewhere. But we have been very fortunate at Duplicate Poker because we have attracted some very skilled people with a wide variety of different backgrounds, in technology, management, marketing, and of course – poker. The third challenge is to raise enough capital to build the company into something successful. I'm proud that Duplicate Poker has met each of these challenges head on and is now moving towards bigger and better things.
DALLA: Bigger and better things? Can you be more specific?
ROMIK: Sure. We recently launched our new online client which includes many new game features. Duplicate Poker now plays just like a regular poker game on the computer. Best of all, the game is now much easier to learn and more fun to play. We are also in the process of developing Duplicate Poker clubs around the US, which are patterned after bridge clubs. You can find a bridge club inside any major US city. In fact, there are more than 3,000 in the US. Our goal is to create a similar environment where people will feel comfortable coming to their local club and playing Duplicate Poker. Improvements in technology will allow this to happen. This will coincide with more major land-based events which will take place in the near future. Also, in 2008 we will be introducing the first-ever "Duplicate Poker World Championship." So, we have many exciting new things coming.
DALLA: How is Duplicate Poker played "live?"
ROMIK: All of the decks at each table are pre-arranged and in order. This way, each player competing gets dealt exactly the same cards. A scorekeeper is placed at each table. The scorekeeper records the number of chips won or lost by each player during the hand. In some places, the dealer also serves as the scorekeeper. Then, after a pre-determined number of hands in the session or round, all scores are compared and the players who performed the best either advance to the next level or are declared the winners.
DALLA: Do you really think this can happen?
ROMIK: We have already held one live Duplicate Bridge tournament. It was held last summer at the Cherokee Casino in Tulsa, OK and was a big success. The tournament attracted 240 players. So, it seems obvious that players want to try out new things. Also, with improvements in technology Duplicate Poker will much be easier to offer to players in different places. First, new high-tech poker tables are being introduced in some casinos which are completely electronic. It's relatively simple to program and offer Duplicate Poker via an automated game format. Second, bar-coded playing cards can be used which makes the pre-sorting of decks much easier. The same high-tech improvements also apply to poker chips.
DALLA: Are there areas where Duplicate Poker may have even greater potential than the prospects for standard poker?
ROMIK: Yes, indeed. I foresee the day coming when there will be international poker federations and competitions taking place all over the world. There will be regional, national, and world Duplicate Poker championships. Perhaps, Duplicate Poker will be offered as an event at the Mind Olympics, which is the ultimate gathering of what are called "mental athletes."
DALLA: One final question about the DuplicatePoker.com website. What's the current status of games?
ROMIK: We are growing bigger each month. Right now, players can sign up and we will give them $5 free to try out the site. All that is required is to download the game client and set up an account. Even if you have not played before, it is easy to learn. We have a tutorial at the site and use pop ups as well, which helps new players to understand Duplicate Poker. Our tournaments start approximately 15 minutes apart and sometimes run even more frequently. We offer poker tournaments with guarantees which means that money is added to the prize pool. This sometimes creates overlays. One thing really appealing to many poker players is that our tournaments are short. Therefore, a player can play in many tournaments or may wish to just play a quick tournament lasting only a few minutes. We also award prizes to the top finishers on our leaderboard.
DALLA: Duplicate Poker's tag-line is "It's Poker. But smarter." What does that mean?
ROMIK: We believe Duplicate Poker provides more of an intellectual challenge. You have to think about your hand in a much broader perspective. For instance, there is no such thing as waiting around for a playable hand. Every hand in Duplicate Poker affects the ultimate outcome. There are also some intense psychological elements to the game. You have to think about how your opponents might play the hand and try and figure out how you can either win more chips or lose fewer chips then them. On each hand I have to think to myself, "Am I making the most I can out of this hand?" Or, "Did I minimize my loss on that hand?" Of course, one can already see that not only is Duplicate Poker interesting to play, it also has great potential as a means of improvement for all poker players.
DALLA: One final question, Pinhas: Most online gaming companies and their owners take a low-key approach. They are neither seen, nor heard and therefore are not widely-known by the public. You take a different approach. Why?
ROMIK: It has been our policy from the very beginning to be completely open about exactly who we are and what we are doing. This goes for all management and shareholders. The reasons why we are so open is because Duplicate Poker is a game of skill and is therefore legal in most US jurisdictions. We have nothing to hide or nor have any reason to stay behind the scenes. This goes for me and everyone else inside the company. We are legal in every respect and comply fully with all US laws. We keep money in US banks. We pay US taxes. We hire American citizens. We are licensed and headquartered inside the US. There used to be a slogan that said, "Buy American." Anyone who believes that would be right at home playing at DuplicatePoker.com.
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